Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova: Rivalry, Friendship, and Facing Cancer Together

Deb Krier 0:00

Hey there, Lifter Uppers. I'm Deb Crear, the co-host of Cancer and Comedy, where our mission is to heal cancer-impacted people through hope and humor, something we like to call turning the grim into a grin. Well, today on Cancer and Comedy, Brad and I are going to be talking about the tennis legends Chris Everett and Martina Navratilova on rivalry friendship and battling cancer together from their upcoming Netflix documentary, The Final Set. Well, now here is the host of our cancer and comedy podcast, Dr. Brad Miller.

Dr. Brad Miller 0:34

Hey, Deb, good to be with you on all of our lifter uppers, people who have said that cancer or some other adversity is not going to get the best of us, so we're going to live a full life to the end of our life, and do so with a sense of humor, a sense of vitality, a sense of giving something back, and we'd like to do that here as we create this community together of people who are moving forward in what we call with hope and humor, cancer and comedy. So we'd love for people to connect up with our community by going to our website, Cancer and comedy.com/follow and you'd be a part of our community there. We also have a place where you can sign up to be get on our list as well. Hey Deb, how about how about a bad joke for the day, you know? Just no, I got, I got a couple here, but, but you know, just, you know, just I found this out. It's kind of tragic in a way. Do you know what the leading cause of dry skin

Deb Krier 1:37

is? I don't know.

Dr. Brad Miller 1:38

Towels, towels,

Deb Krier 1:39

cute, cute, I I like that

Dr. Brad Miller 1:44

one more. When is an Irish potato not Irish?

Deb Krier 1:51

I don't know

Dr. Brad Miller 1:52

when it's a French fry.

Deb Krier 1:54

Cute, cute. I love it. I love it. Well, of course, following our conversation, you're going to want to stick around, because yep, we've got another one of Dr. Brad's bad jokes of the day, but then, of course, we turn very serious, serious with our Faith It or Break It segment. Well, as mentioned, we would love for you to be part of the Cancer and Comedy community, where together we crush cancer with a message of how to cope with hope and humor. Please follow Cancer and Comedy at Cancer and comedy.com/follow

Dr. Brad Miller 2:28

Well, Deb, a couple weeks ago I was privileged to attend, believe it or not, my 50th high school reunion, because I can't, you know, I'm an old guy, I mean, I mean, you're, you know,

Deb Krier 2:41

I haven't quite hit your,

Dr. Brad Miller 2:43

your, your, the youngster among us here, but, but anyhow, it made me think a little bit, it kind of gave me a little bit nostalgia for the 70s. Okay, I graduated high school 1976 that was the bicycle year, but it was also a year that there was some really major things in women's sports happening, and that was when a woman by the name of Chris Evert came on the scene, and not too long after that, a woman named Martina Navratrilova came on the scene, and they really kind of, in many ways, helped the whole women's sports world open up. They were tennis champions, and they were basically ranked number one and two in the world for 1015 years, and they kind of competed against one another, and, and some of our younger listeners may not know who we're talking about, but you will agree with me that back in the day they were legendary.

Deb Krier 3:35

Oh, right, they definitely were, you know, before them we did have Billie Jean King, but she was pretty much it from the tennis standpoint, and you know they were really playing at their peak when I was a teenager, late teens, and it really was incredible, because more than anything everybody actually started paying attention to women athletes, and they're probably some of the first ones that I really remember were the big names that you heard a lot of talk about,

Dr. Brad Miller 4:07

yeah, and that was a part of, in a way, many ways, part of 70s and 80s culture was part of that, the emergence of women in sports and in women overall, that kind of thing, and what, what we're talking about, that brought this, brought this to mind, there was a new Netflix documentary coming out very soon, called Chris and Martina the final set, which is about the relationship between Chris Everett and Martina Navratilova, who they were competitors, but they were also doubles partners, and they were basically one and two in the world for, like, I said, many years, 1015 years, and it's talks in this. They've been interviewed at several occasions here recently. I saw a couple of their interviews regarding this this Netflix documentary they're doing, and a part of it, of course, is about their tennis careers, but it's all. Also, about their friendship and relationship, and also about how they had this unique situation in the last several years. Both of them were diagnosed with cancer about the same time, and so that experience, not only of being longtime rivals, friends back and forth, like long-term relationships are, but also now having to both deal with, you know, life-threatening cancer in both of their cases. It was pretty serious, ovarian cancer and Chris Everett's part, and breast cancer, and Martinez part. They, you know, both went through significant treatments, and so on, and and they, how that experience kind of brought them together, so the story, the net documentary, and what we're going to talk about here today is the value of long, the value and the challenges of long-term relationships. How there's some complications about that, and there are some joyous things about that in this case, rivalry, colleague, friendship, and how that has shaped them, them, and how it can shape all of us. But just give me some kind of top line reaction to what this overall topic we're talking about. Long-term relationships, how they have ebbs and flows, and sometimes some seminal moment, like cancer, can change everything.

Deb Krier 6:24

Well, you know, I think a lot of the rivalry, even the animosity between them, was totally made up by the media. They've always been pretty good friends, but you know, it was, it was the story, right? You know, this is, is in the 80s, where Chrissy, I remember her being called Chrissy, right, this cute little blonde, right, and Martina was just rather rough around the edges, Czechoslovakian, right, with this real harsh accent and things, and so it just made for perfect, you know, viewing pleasure, right, as, as they would say, and you know, but they spent a lot of time together because they went to all of the same tournaments, all sorts of things, and they really did develop a very good friendship, but I think it's interesting because we all had, you know, you mentioned your 50 year reunion, we had friends that we thought would be our bosom buddies till the day we

Dr. Brad Miller 7:20

died,

Deb Krier 7:21

and those relationships drifted apart, you know. We moved, had kids, you know, got divorced, all of those various things, and those friendships definitely changed through the years. And, you know, one of the things that I found, you know, with my diagnosis is some of the people who had kind of drifted apart came back,

Dr. Brad Miller 7:42

wow,

Deb Krier 7:42

and were incredible with their support, and you know, others, others disappeared, but sometimes those, you know, especially those childhood and young teen bonds, they're going to be the ones that, when the time comes, they're the people who step up,

Dr. Brad Miller 7:59

you know, I think it's part of what cancer does, and other things like this. It kind of reveals the nature of relationships, those who have kind of a long enduring bond, and how sometimes you know the pressure can fracture relationships as well. And so, and also think perception is kind of the thing here, you know, they had a lot of people perceived how their relationship was, you know, good

Deb Krier 8:25

news for them to be at all,

Dr. Brad Miller 8:28

right? But really, in reality, they, you know, they had their ups and downs, they were competitive, you know, they wanted to defeat each other,

Deb Krier 8:35

always competitive, they did not want the other one to win, right, but,

Dr. Brad Miller 8:38

but they still were colleagues as well, in a sense, and you know that kind of thing, so, but cancer came in their lives in the last several years and kind of equalized things, you know, and I think cancer and other great adversities like this can be an equalizer, and let's see, one of the things Martina said is that cancer makes you just like everybody else, and I think Chris said something to that effect, as it doesn't matter if you're never one in the world or you're a great athlete or have a lot of things going for you, that there's no, the cancer diagnosis doesn't check your trophy case, is one thing that was said, so I think that's important, it does equalize things, and so How do you think your experience you and I had with cancer kind of equalized things for us? What do you think about that?

Deb Krier 9:28

I mean, you know, it is something that virtually everybody has to deal with, whether themselves or they know someone, and I think a lot of times, especially with an athlete, we put them up on a pedestal and we think, oh, this can't happen to them, and then, oh gosh, they're human too, you know. I've, you know, I'm big University of Colorado football person, and of course, Coach Prime Dion Saunders has been very public with his dealings with bladder cancer, and I. Know, that's excuse me. One of the things that people have said was, wow, we never thought someone like him would get cancer, and you know, and of course, a lot of times you have big celebrities, you know, who deal with it, and the public never knows, right? But that's what I like when someone who has this voice, you know, like a big athlete does, talks about this in public, because then it really does show it can happen to anyone, and it might be kind of bumpy too, you know, it's gonna be all hearts and flowers.

Yeah, well, I think has to do with kind of a resetting our identity to be like everybody else, and I know in my case, you know, as a pastor, I saw probably hundreds of people with cancer and other bad health situations in my career, and I was basically relatively charmed. Life, I had some health challenges in my life, but, but when cancer came around for me and says, "Okay, you're not immune to this, there you go, there you go. One thing is one of the other things I thought was kind of really interesting in this. I think I know this applies to me, and I think it might to you as well. But both Martina and Chris Everett mentioned something, the thing about control freaks, you know, when you have cancer, that kind of throws the control thing out the window, you know. You can't control this, you know you can try to control how you react to it, but you can't force anything here. And so say, say a word about that, about how they had to approach their need to control.

Of course, a professional athlete, especially at that very elite level has everything planned, every minute of the day, every bite of food that they eat, they have to, I mean, to be able to stay at that peak performance, and then something comes in and says, "Ha, you were in charge. Now it's interesting, because you know, one of them used the word that they had to surrender.

Yes, I think Chris said that, Chris Evert, yeah.

And I, I'm, I'm going to disagree with that, because to me, at least in my mind, surrender means giving up, and now we can certainly surrender that control, or you know, we also are going to say, "Okay, I'm going to control what I can. You know, and, and, and I think that's very important, is to, you know, think, "Okay, well, now what am I going to have to do to get through this? And in a lot of ways, that is what a professional athlete does. You know, what am I going to do to get through this next tournament? What am I going to do to get through this next whatever, and you know, and they do what they need to do for that, but yeah, you know, we all think we're in charge until something like this happens.

Yeah, and I think it's all this basic lesson in Chris Evers to use the term surrender, and I kind of wondered about that too, a little bit, because you and I have talked about it, you know, sometimes we talk about cancer warriors. Sometimes people call it cancer survivors, and I've always kind of struggled with what kind of terminology to use exactly, but I think one of the things is that you know, you and I deal with a lot of high achievers, you're certainly a high achiever business wise and otherwise, and people are kind of used to being in control, and it definitely, you get puts a different tact on things, a different perspective on things that you can't control everything, but you can kind of navigate it in a different sort of way, and it's, I might use the term pivot, you know, we kind of are heading down one track here, and you know, we still want to head the direction of basically you and I are big advocates of having a fulfilled, happy, productive life to the end, whether you live a day or to do hotter, you know, whatever it is, and so in our daily life, but it does change your daily routines, you know, if you've been disrupted, you know, you're used to doing things certain way, you got to pay attention to what's going on here, right,

and of course, that is hard for, especially someone who is an athlete, or you know, say a business executive, or something like that. They really are used to being in charge, and not only are they not in charge of their own body, they're not, they're just not in charge. I mean, they're having to rely on other people, and so maybe, though, in this circumstance, it's kind of like, okay, you go from a tennis coach to your oncologist, and in a lot of ways they're providing the same type of support, right?

Yeah, absolutely. I think another aspect I think was interesting about the conversation between Martina and Chris is how they kind of had sort of a mind meld sort of a thing here about how they began to really support one another, and they even use kind of a terminology about, you know, kind of a twin mentality, in a sense, they would, they would, they were cancer sisters, that that's a one way, if one was down, the other one would pick them up, and vice vice versa, and. And I'm just curious, have you? I'm not sure I have this in my life, but do you have any kind of cancer twin, or somebody you've really have turned to?

You know, not really. There is another person that has been going through some, some things at the same time, but I think we're different enough, but that, you know, it wasn't, you know, really wasn't all that similar, but at the same point it's that support, and I think we have seen that is, you know, even if somebody had cancer years ago, they remember what it's like, and so they become very supportive.

Yeah, I think that's part of a lot of what we're trying to do here at Cancer and Comedy, provide an environment for people to connect. I know you, you know, have your Try Not to Die Dot Live website and Facebook community as well, which, and I know you post there a lot, and people respond to that. We're trying to offer a place for people to make connections, that kind of thing, may or may not be a twin thing, like these two had. They, they kind of had you unique long-term experience here, but kind of where cancer kind of accentuated and kind of magnified it towards the last few years. But I think one of the things that they shared and don't always have with everybody, but I think it's an interesting aspect of their experience. They talk about how the rivalry they had in many ways was preparation for them help being helpful to help one another not only survive but thrive in their current circumstances, and so that's kind of a kind of a particular thing for them, but I think for all of us, I think part of what you may have been getting at about this surrender thing, I think all of us need a little bit of a competitive nature,

see them talking smack to each other, right,

but I can also see them kind of talking smack about cancer, like, I know you have kind of, like, you know, we've all seen, you know, you know, cancer sucks, and things like this, you know, that kind of thing, you know, where it is basically, we're going to battle this, we are cancer battlers, you know, we're, we're not just taking this line down, we are getting after it, you know, the people who do the race for the Cure, and other things like that, are very active in things like that. It's not only about survival, it's about battling, it's about, you know, the rivalry they had competitively helps them down to battle this, and so

that foe,

yeah, so, and kind of this unexpected life experiences, this kind of training for what we do here now. Take any aspect of your life was kind of about Bethany. I know you worked in the Cancer Society some years ago.

I mean, you know, it was.. I've certainly been around a lot of people who have had cancer, and you know, I worked for an oncologist and I worked for the American Cancer Society, and I think one of the biggest things was that I saw their resilience, you know, even when they were having really bad times, you still saw them say, "but I'll get through this.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's very true, very true, and we can learn from others' experience, I thought, and sometimes it has to do even with just the tactics and the things that we do to help us to cope, you know. We like to talk about coping with hope and humor, but sometimes there's even more detail things we can do that I'm thinking. I think the training regiments that Martina and Chris had in their tennis lives, kind of helped them a little bit. I know that I think it was Martina mentioned about one of the ways she coped is she had something like 36 chemo treatments to do, and she was taking them off, kind of check marking them, you know, I got 34 to go, I got 10 to go, and this kind of thing, and she said that was a bit of our competitor's brain going in that she is going to, you know, get through the next one to kind of turn the frightening unknown into a little bit of a game, or a little bit gamification of it. Yeah, she

was, she was taking as much control back as she could,

right? Yeah, absolutely, kind of a scoreboard thing, if you will, getting the small wins that kind of, and I think for all of us, we can kind of do some of those type of things, you know. I know when I was going through my treatments, and so on, it was, you know, just two people. The first couple days was just getting out of bed, you know, was a huge, huge deal, you know. And then some of the other things that you have to do when you cover for from surgery, and, and to kind of see it as a, as, as an accomplishment, so good,

right? You know, and, and they, I believe they both ran one grand slams, I mean, you can't get any bigger than, no,

right, they both won. And

right, multiple, yeah, so many, and but I think they saw this as the bigger battle,

yeah, well, and I think I think they saw kind of a different perspective on winning now compared to, you know, winning during their tennis days was very focused on the next tournament, you know, the Grand Slam, the tournament, and you know, the your monetary winnings, the whole bit was all a process there, and I think this documentary, the final set, kind of uses the sports analogy or metaphor or framework to see that there's other things that are important too, and I think they've lifted up things like understanding your mortality, you know, that's really the power, the value of friendship, lingering long-term friendship, your, your personal identity is not all wrapped up in, you know, how many trophies you got, and that kind of thing,

and you know, in a lot of ways, especially since they were elite athletes, their bodies have betrayed them, and I'm sure that's got to be very hard. I mean, you know, I remember an interview that Coach Prime gave, where he was talking about the fact that now when he coaches football games, there has to be a porta potty on the sideline, you know, and I mean, just for him to even admit that is incredible, right? But, um, but yeah, you know, it's you were going this one direction, and wow, that body that you depended on has said, nope, we're gonna go a different way,

and for many people that would be, you know, humiliating. You wouldn't want to talk about it, and

most people don't talk about it, right? Yeah,

right. I know that. Well, they're in my case, you know, there are certain aspects of when you have prostate cancer, you deal with incontinence, and you deal with impotence and some other things are pretty embarrassing, and it took me a while to kind of come around to deal with those somewhat forthright rightly, so let's just kind of wrap up this conversation with they, I think Martino Navatar, a little bit, Chris Everett have kind of redefined what winning is for them now, and so you know what winning means, the trophies are fun, but it's part of their past, and where their friendship is, a relationship is now, and so I'll just ask you, what does winning look like for you right now, Deb?

Well, I think it's definitely that we reprioritize things, right? You know, it's not about that next big sale, it's not about, you know, doing that great presentation. It's wow, I heard from a friend today, or I helped a friend today, and, and that ends up being even bigger.

Yeah, awesome. And I'll say the same thing for me, I know I prioritized, I was really career-oriented for a long time, and I got my cancer diagnosis just a month after retirement, and I was really kind of wondering what I was going to do in my retirement years, and this is kind of focused me on, you know, what we're doing here, cancer and comedy, to try to help people to cope with hope and humor, and that's been an important part of what I try to do personally, what we try to do together here on this podcast, and that's part of what it's about, and I think it's good for us to see these stories about people in the public eye who are dealing with similar things, have had to reset their lives, and so maybe reset is kind of the appropriate way of putting this, because the name of this documentary is the final set, and so we're that's coming up pretty soon. I know I'm going to watch it when it comes out, and I think it might be good for our lifter uppers to check it out, and for us to be mindful of that. And we'd love to hear from our lifter uppers. How has can your cancer journey kind of reset your life as well? And maybe we, and we can respond to that in one of our episodes, or in some form or another.

Right? I love that. I love that. Well, yeah, I mean, this really has been absolutely fascinating, and it's been kind of a serious discussion that we've had today. So, I think we need another one of your bad jokes of the day.