Making Comedy from Adversity: Mallori DeSalle’s Real Talk on Cancer, Family, and Fleas

Deb Krier 0:00

Hey, there lifter uppers. I'm Deb crear, the co host of cancer and comedy, where our mission is to heal cancer impacted people through hope and humor, something we like to call turning the grim into a grin. Well, today on cancer and comedy, we're going to be talking with speaker, therapist, humorist and a recent member of the coping with cancer club. Mallory desal now here is the host of cancer and comedy. Dr Brad Miller,

Dr. Brad Miller 0:28

Hey, Deb, what an honor and a privilege to be with you and all of our lifter uppers here on cancer and comedy. This is the place where we like to offer a bit of information and inspiration and a few laughs and levity to help people to cope with hope, with cancer or other bad adversities that they have on their life. And we kind of use cancer not only to deal with the actual, literal cancer that you and I are survivors of. Your breast cancer survivor, I'm a prostate cancer survivor. And we also help people deal with other adversities in life, be it kind of a depression or divorce, disease, debt, death in the family, other things like that, and to deal with it from a little bit of a positive perspective. And so we like to call this helping to turn the grim of your adversity into the grin of a fulfilled life, that you can live fulfilled to to the end, to have a fulfilled Good, good life to the end and and we really like to develop a community here. That's what we've been doing for a couple years together. We've been doing our podcast a community where people can be helpful to one another, and we love it when people reach out and contact us, and we can be helpful to them and be part of a community that we work on together. And you do that simply by going to our website, cancer and comedy.com/follow,

Dr. Brad Miller 1:50

well, Deb, one of the things we like to do is to tell dumb dad jokes, and so we are now. We're recording this in in December with Christmas time. So I thought I'd try to find a way to combine Christmas with health and even with mental health, with some dumb jokes. This is a little tricky, but are you ready? Are you ready? Are you

Deb Krier 2:11

I eagerly await this.

Dr. Brad Miller 2:15

There you go. Why do you here's one. Why doesn't Santa ever get sick? I don't know. He has lots of elf care, lots of elf care.

Deb Krier 2:26

Cute, cute.

Dr. Brad Miller 2:28

Here's another one for you. Well, why did the ornament go to therapy?

Dr. Brad Miller 2:37

Just had trouble hanging on. Oh.

Speaker 1 2:43

Well, folks, as I groan at those, if you are a longtime listener, you know that, following our conversation with Mallory, we will have, yep, another one of Dr Brad's bad jokes of the day. But then, of course, we turn serious for our very important faith It or Break It segment. Well, as mentioned, we would love for you to be part of the cancer and comedy community, where together we crush cancer with a message of how to cope with hope and humor. Please follow cancer and comedy at cancer and comedy.com/follow

Dr. Brad Miller 3:18

well Deb, one of the joys and privileges that you and I both have in doing the cancer and comedy podcast, and being in those a circle of people who are choosing to face life's challenges with some levity, is to get in contact with people who really have something to offer and but who also going through some difficult times in their life, and choose To to deal with it through choosing hope and choosing some laughter in their life, even the midst of some difficult circumstances. And recently, I was introduced to a woman named Mallory desal, and she and I both have the cool honor distinction. We both are Indiana University football fans, and we are now the number one ranked ranked team on the country and going into the playoffs. So that's cool, but moreover, there you go. There you go. And so we are really happy about that, but, but she, she also we've got to know her a little bit. She is a therapist herself, a mental health counselor, a licensed mental health counselor, a motivational interviewing trainer and a certified humor professional. And her name is Mallory desal and she owns her own business and is on the faculty within the School of Public Health at Indiana University in Bloomington, Indiana. And her credentials don't impress her family, but occasionally her corner jokes do make them laugh. And she's also a member, a recent member, of the coping with cancer club. And you can find her at her website, which is Mallory desal.com and that's spelled M, a l, l, O, R, I, D, E, S, a l, l, e.com, and she's our guest here today. On cancer and comedy. So Mallory, welcome to our conversation. We're so glad to have you with us

Mallori DeSalle 5:08

talking stuffers. I need Brad, thanks to those jokes you just gave me. Thank you.

Dr. Brad Miller 5:13

There you go. There

Mallori DeSalle 5:17

will be one for each of my kids. Thank you.

Dr. Brad Miller 5:21

Well, O'Malley, thank you for being with us here today. We really, really, really appreciate you being with us. And you know, give us, Deb's going to take over the story for the most part here, but just to say that you are an accomplished person in your own right, as a as a as a professor, as a therapist, as a humorist, a stand up comedian, but recently and unfortunately, but you're handling it so such a way. You're in the coping with cancer club, and so Deb, I'm going to let you take it. Take it from there.

Deb Krier 5:55

Well, again, Mallory, thank you so much. We're going to have such a fun discussion. And that's the key, right? We have to have fun with this. Earlier today, somebody told me, you know, that I always laugh about all of this. And I said, Well, you know, if we didn't laugh, we would cry, and I think that's a big part of why humor is so important. But you were a comedian before your cancer diagnosis, so tell us a little bit more about how it is that you got into doing that.

Mallori DeSalle 6:21

Thanks for asking, Deb. I think naturally I have been a performer my whole life, whether it was on stage in church or singing or a part of the community theater. Shout out to Mr. Sedivy, my high school drama coach. And I thought humor was something you did as a kid, but then I put it away for a while. While I became this really serious professional.

Deb Krier 6:48

You must be professional.

Mallori DeSalle 6:49

That's right, that's right. I had to be super serious, super, you know, wear suits and ties and hold myself together. And it seemed like no one took me seriously at all, and I didn't get it. I had not like, what's going on here? And then I started getting a little silly and letting my authentic humor come out. And someone said, Have you ever tried stand up? And of course, I thought, no, no, I can't do that. I got to be really serious. But then I did, and I found myself again, and once I started showing up in the serious world as my more authentic silly self, the world started to take me more seriously, and I started to feel more at home on stage, and humor became more of an honest way of being myself, as opposed to

Mallori DeSalle 7:45

a performance for the audience. It was for me, and it has really helped me get through some tough times. So it's it's become more of a self help as opposed to entertain. Yeah, right. I love it. I love it, you know. And one of the things that I was just fascinated with this is you are an Oreo sommelier. And I know I say that different, but, you know, so you are an Oreo expert, like the Oreo cookie. Tell us more about that, because that is just one of the silliest things I've ever

Mallori DeSalle 8:16

heard of. Yeah, I like to brag. That's like, one of the things that I tell people, if I'm not connecting with someone, I'll say, how many types of Oreos Have you tried? And they'll say, I don't know. Is there more than one? And I say, Well, I've tried about

Speaker 1 8:26

bubble stuff or those thin Did you buy an Oreo that has the thin frosting? Right?

Mallori DeSalle 8:33

No, I do it because that way I feel like I'm I'm exercising. You know? It's like a diet cookie, feeling like making healthy choices when I get the Ben kind. But yeah, I call myself a sommelier Oreo Somalia, because sometimes I spit them out. Deb, sometimes they are not worth the calories. But I've tried flavors from across the world, about 150 flavors. Most recently, this last week I tried Oreos, turkey and stuffing, Play Doh Oreo, yeah, and the creamed corn Oreo. Hard pass for you, huh? Yeah, I'm telling you, I'm an Oreo purist. I want just the white sticky frosting. Yeah, are you? Are you a dipper, a twister? You know, this can get

Deb Krier 9:28

Twister and and, of course, you have to twist it so that it comes off, you know, in one piece, right? Then you're a true Twister.

Mallori DeSalle 9:36

Yeah, that's right. So you might have your technique down pat. Then, because, you know, it tells me a lot about a person if you keep twisting till you get it right. Yeah, it's a personality test for you well.

Speaker 1 9:48

And you know, one of the things that that I saw on your Facebook page, because we're now Facebook friends, is some of your friends found a great way to support you on your cancer journey. Journey by personalizing Oreos. And I just thought that was the coolest thing

I'm telling you. What you you don't know that a person knows you till they get an Oreo cookie with your face on it, like, you know, eating a cookie with her own face.

Yeah, a little weird.

It was, it was like, Is is this like us? Like, should I be eating my own face? Is this a little then my kids said, Hey, Mom, why don't you donate those cookies to the bake sale? And I thought, is that even weirder to be like, here?

Oh, kids going, isn't this young your son's mom?

Yeah, well, I feel like I've been raised to like, deity status, like Santa Claus and melody, like the next level. I mean, I feel pretty fancy, but, yeah, I was diagnosed with cancer in October, and I had my bilateral mastectomy about three weeks ago, and so I'm really still in the depths of healing, but I'm finding Oreos are really helpful during the process.

Yeah, and, and, you know, one of the things that they say, ew, sugar feeds cancer. No, you we still have to indulge. We still, now, you know, rather than needing the entire sleeve of cookies, one or two, that's, that's the thing.

As a sommelier, I finished up, I taste, I taste, I really try and spend time mindfully suggesting what the flavors are like, smelling it like creamed corn, for instance, Deb and I really did have a creamed corn Oreo. I smelled that, and if it smelled exactly the way, you know when you start cracking the can before you make like creamed corn casserole or something, you could, you could smell it just as soon as you crack it. And that's the way that Oreo smelled. And I could taste cheese in that situation. But you know what? I don't eat more than that one bite.

I mean, that's, that's the thing, and, and even if it was good, you still wouldn't over indulge. But let's, let's talk more about your journey. I mean, you're doing amazingly well for just having your surgery. How you could now, you are a youngster, especially compared to me. I was diagnosed in my 50s, you know, how were you? What was the process where you, you know, discovered that you had this nasty thing going on? Well, first of all, thank you for calling me.

That is amazing. You could stay I am so I'm 47 I had my mastectomy one week before my 47th birthday. So I was 46 when diagnosed, and I went in for my annual mammogram. Ladies go get a mammogram. Just do yourself okay, just go do it. And I have had my mammograms every year since 40 so I am the girl that makes the dental appointment every six months. Get my primary care appointments every year i i am the preventative medicine friend. So leading up to this year's mammogram, I had no indication of any increased risk, and I got my letter in the mail every year, and just was like, Okay, I did it this year after I got my letter, which is how I get my results, some people get phone calls. My letter said, as a small increase of calcification was noted, you may want to get a repeat mammogram. So nothing too stressful. No. And I called my mom, and I said, Mom, did you ever have this done? And she said, No. And I don't, you know, but I have these, you know, Lumpy breasts is what my mom called and I was like that, thanks. Yeah. I was like, I don't want to be this close anymore. Okay, and so. And then I told my massage therapist, and she said, Oh, yeah, I've had that done. That's no big deal. And I said to someone else, oh, I'm doing this. And so every indication that this is common, and I did learn that many women have this, and it really isn't an indication of cancer.

It's an indication that we're getting older.

It happens with aging. And I was like, thanks a lot. I also got, you know, progressive lenses this year. So I get it, yeah, death says, like, not though people. So this is so I went to. In for my repeat mammogram without really feeling any concern, and I was actually finding it to be an exercise and just kind of patience. And my experience in the follow up mammogram was one of my favorite female medicine moments. Deb, because I went in, they called me back, and they said, Okay, now put put on this half gown and and then wait out here. And so I'm wearing this maroon half gown, and I sit in a second waiting room, and there's another woman in there with the same maroon half gown on, hanging out. And I look at her, and I go, where'd you get your shirt? Like, and then she realized I'm making Yeah, and she goes, Oh, it must have been a good sale. And I Oh. And so we both laugh. And then this other woman comes in, and then the woman I said it to looks at her and goes, I like your shirt. Oh. Laughing. We're laughing. And a nurse comes in and she goes, What's going on in here? You guys are having too good time that not just amazed how well dressed we all are. And it was this moment of, we're all here for something scary, seemingly. So we don't want to say we're scared, but the fact that we're all sitting here, you know, in a private waiting room, we're anxious, and laughter helped, and and then, of course, I go and I get the regular mammogram, and they asked me to sit and wait again. And so I carry on with laughing with these ladies. I have never been asked to wait before, and that was my first nervous moment. They were reading it while you were still there. Yeah, I wasn't going to wait for a letter. And that was an increased anxiety. And they pulled me back, and they said, gosh, we see something that we'd like to have biopsied. And they brought in another nurse to help me make that appointment right then. And it was someone I knew from my community. It was a parent of a child in my own child's grade. And she said, you know, this might be uncomfortable that I'm here. Do you want a different nurse? And I said, Actually, no, the fact that you're going to be a part of this gives me comfort. She walked through the biopsy process. I got the biopsy. She was with me that full time. That was about a week later, two days after the biopsy, they told me it was, in fact, ductal carcinoma, and that same day of my diagnosis, they had me scheduled with a surgeon, within three days with a plastic surgeon, and within three days of that, I got my genetic test back, and I was scheduled for my mastectomy. So for me, the process was very smooth, very comfortable, if you can call it that. I didn't have a ton of time to have anxiety, but I started applying humor right away, because I felt myself feeling scared and anxious, just from even the get go of you might follow up.

Of course, we know that laughing physical changes causes physical changes in our body. You know it. The strange thing is, it decreases our blood pressure, right? You think it would raise it, but you know, and you know, there are certain chemicals in our body that helps, and all of those things, and you know it. And I always feel, you know. And I've been, I've been on this journey just a little over 10 years. I always like to make the medical staff laugh, right? I figure if they're relaxed and calm, it's gonna be better for me, yeah, you know. And, and so we laugh, we joke. Now, there was one time where I got a little too carried away, and I was out just like that. But, you know, I had another one where I was, it was actually almost a year ago. I had my port removed after nine years. And, you know, oh yeah, you know, it was, it was very entertaining. And, you know, it's December, right? And, and so they've covered my head up so that I can't see what's going on, which was a good thing. And the Charlie Brown they're playing music, right? Christmas music, because it's, you know, December, and the Charlie Brown theme song comes on, you know, the right? And so from under my drape, and they had told me, do not move. Now telling me to not move is, yeah, and so I was trying to live, right? And, you know, and, and so, you know, I hear Charlie Brown, come on, and, what do I do? Everybody dance. And, you know, and, and, and. And I can't see, I can't tell, you know what's going on. And so I say, Excuse me, are you dancing? Are you dancing? So, you know, kind of giggles like and so when we were done, and they took the drape off, and I was talking to the doctor, I apologize. I said, I'm sorry. I you know, I get carried away. And he looks at me and he said, most, he said, best patient I've had all week. He said, I love the fact that that you were, you were more concerned about making us laugh than what you were going through, you know, and, and I think part of that is I trusted them, right? You know, making them laugh, you know, was, was relaxing to them also.

Yeah, one of the things that I have often said is laughter is a measurement of trust and a modality to build trust. And it is that oxytocin effect that happens that if you are staying in the present moment and connecting through that laughter, all of a sudden, there's community. They will never again have that exact experience, and because you shared that, you have a unique connection and bond. And I, I think that that is also something that I try and do at all times when I'm thinking about, Okay, I'm hurting, but the people around me, they're hurting too, and certainly as a helping professional, but just as an empath, it seems like you're an empath too. We want people to feel safe and comfortable. And I remember my kids walked in to the post surgery room. They had, first of all, they asked if they could skip school for my surgery. I said, Yeah, like, Well, do you need us there? And I was like, my surgery is at 8am No, you do not need to skip. No, you go to school. Kids savvy. And so they came, and they had a gift for me. They had a cute stuffed animal and some flowers and some socks. And I said, Oh, thank god I bought any socks, because the nurses told me my feet were fat. They said. They said, What? And the fact of the matter was, Deb, is that they put extra large socks on everyone, okay, like it is your tread on them so that you don't

it is always on the top of your foot, and the slicky part is

still my feet are literally for like, the size of Cabbage Patch Kid feet. I have the smallest feet. I still shop in children's section, and I like they clearly think I have fat feet because they gave me extra large socks. My feet don't fit. I'm feeling so uncomfortable. And my kids are like, is this the drugs? Like, what is happening?

Mom's at it again.

Here we go. So of course, they thought, okay, and they tried to make tiktoks with me, not in the recovery room. And I said, No, no, no, tiktoks Now kids, but yeah, I was trying to make jokes just to let them know, it's fine, but yeah,

you have young kids, and this is scary, you know, do you? You obviously use humor to try and lighten the load for them, you know, but how do you know when, when the time comes to be serious? Kind of, how do you have those conversations?

Yeah, it's, it's a great question. And I think as a humor professional, I have to ask myself that question a lot, whether it's at work or with friends, with my kids, how much risk is there for the reward? And I do want them to know what is serious versus is what is taking ourselves too serious? So when I was going to have the biopsy, I did say I'm going to have a biopsy. Chances are there's nothing wrong, just so, you know, I'll still make dinner, you know. And so that's serious, relaxing. In fact, they took it so much like they didn't care that I was like, Hey, I'm having my biopsy today. And they're like, Oh, you already told us. Okay, my bad. And so I think I reassured them too much, this ain't no thing. And then when I can be a little bit more flexible, like with my mom, my mom and dad were at the house after my surgery, and my kids were sitting around with me, and I have the kind of I chose to go with a two step reconstruction, meaning I have expanders in my chest that are slowly being filled so that once I have the size of breast that I feel comfortable with, I can have them made into permanent breath. So. Stretch, and it'll sit like this for about three months before I have implants put in place. But everyone seems to be curious. You know what? How are you Can

we touch it? Like,

well, I say like, Well, have you touched a Tupperware bowl? Because that's what it feels like, a little worner, but it just feels like Tupperware. And so my so I said to my mom, well, Mom, you've had, you've had bigger boobs and and she goes, Well, she shakes her and she goes, I have bigger boob and I said, what? But I started laughing, because she went from, you know, plural to singular Yes, and I'm laughing, and my daughter's laughing, and she's just so embarrassed she just heard her grandmother say the word boo, which, of course, is a little unusual. We have a very Christian home, and

everybody's 12, and you're giggling, right?

And we're just like grandma just said, you know, like eight, double up eight and so. And then my mom says, well, one of my breasts is larger than the other, so I only have big boo. Okay, well, I'm not doing that. Okay. No, I will be. I will be trying to look for some sense of, you know, equal, equal size. But what the size? Won't that I said, I'm just want to try to go back to the way I was before, but that's when you can be a little bit sillier and and I'm letting everyone in the room, know, parent to grandchild, know that I can be silly about it, because there's no risk. There's no risk, really with that. And it's about me. I'm not joking about them. I'm not joking about my my mother's chest. I'm letting her own that joke. And so that's really what I'm learning about comedy and cancer and comedy on any hardship, and it is, whoever's hardship it is, they get to crack a joke, right?

Yeah, it gets weird when we're talking about the fat kid or, you know, whatever it's like, let's just just not go there, because then it gets tacky and nasty.

It's judgment. It's judgment, and it is evaluating what is funny and not when it's really not our pain to turn into pleasure. And in my case, the times I laugh the most is when I can take my own hardship and turn it into humor. And that's just it. So if I'm taking someone else's hardship, it never is as funny, and then it ends up just being cruel, and that goes against my value, right?

So you know, when I'm assuming you're kind of taking a bit of a break from the stage just while you're healing, but when you're back performing again, is this all going to be incorporated in your act?

Yeah, I so I'm doing a lot of improv, as opposed to stand up these days, so you never know how it'll come out. But I do have some new pieces, especially around my first surgeon said to me, Valerie, don't worry, don't worry, you have the best kind of cancer. In fact, if my wife had cancer, I'd want her to have this one. I started laughing, and I said, You like your wife very much. This is ridiculous, then, so I'm sure there's a bit there to work with. And then I also was told, because I have, I'm biomarker positive, which means I can't take hormone replacement, right?

So I got it Thelma and Louise, oh, two female names, right? You know, it was like I could have someone Louise and Lucy and Nestle, and then I couldn't think of it. I just want to,

I just want to ask the question here, Dev, you didn't throw a throwaways off a cliff somewhere, did you? I just want to make sure you

didn't do the ones that look most real. Somebody will post on Facebook and tell me, me, they will tag me. Don't forget to have your girls checked, right? Yeah, one person one time who said it numerous times, Lucy and Ethel on the counter, right? And I said, Now, what do I do?

Oh, my. Well, I just kind of wanted to ask a question here, if I could introduce but I know one thing that I'm really enjoying the conversation here, that Deb, you and Mallory are having, but I also know that Mallory, you've mentioned one of our other conversations that would kind of have a perfect storm of a lot of things going on. And you kind of mentioned about your kids dealing with it and how they're dealing with things. And you mentioned your mother as well. Yeah, about how kind of part of that dynamic, of how you navigate that, but you know, you're going through some other stuff in your life, and everybody's going through a lot of stuff in life, you know, and you add on cancer, or whatever it is to it, and it just can massively complicate things. And so just get touch with go as deep as you want to, but give us an idea of some of the perfect storm that you're dealing with, and maybe some tips out of that that can maybe help others to cope with it a little bit, because we all are going through our own form of a perfect storm.

So what you're referencing, I believe Brad is I'm also currently going through divorce. I've been married for 22 years with my husband for almost 25 years. And so our marriage can drink, and I think it's been drinking a little too much, and so we decided to part ways. And he's a wonderful man and a great father, and at the same time, it is pretty difficult to go through divorce while also having cancer treatment. And because you can't really heal from divorce while you're busy healing, it's difficult. And so there's that, and I will say perhaps the most dramatic thing going on besides healing from cancer while divorcing and living in the same house, is that recently, our cat got fleas. And I'm telling you, I know, but here's the problem, I was the only person that kept getting pitched from the flea, and people thought I was making it up, you guys, they thought I was making it up like I was like, itching. I'm like, Y'all, I have fleas, I have sleep. And they're they're all like, well, bless your heart, honey. Oh, forget it. Your poor body is honey. You just had some incisions. Are you on hydrocomb

Dental and no one else is getting bit you? No one else the cat's like, why am I locked away? And I said, Please, somebody bathe the cat. Get the cat flea. No one else is itching. Days go by weeks. I tell my therapist I'm itching. She's like, I bet you are. Sure you got fleece. I believe that. You believe that Valerie. And then finally, I ordered on Amazon, because, of course, I'm not driving, I ordered on Amazon these flea traps, and I put them in the cat's room, I put them in the dining room, I put them in the basement where I am and in my bedroom, and sure enough, only my bedroom and the basement where I stay had freaking fleas, and so I just that is the perfect storm, because not only did they literally have fleas, but no one believed me. Sometimes,

that's what puts you over the edge, right? One, something that is silly and stupid, and you're like, I have blankety, blankety, blank fleas.

They're like, how are the drains? How are the expanders? I don't care. I have fleas. Radiation. I'll take tamoxifen. Get rid of these fleas. These fleas are driving people in groups. So if I have any advice for people getting a mastectomy, if you would like to reduce your discomfort with drains and with spacers, just give yourself please focus on Yeah, yeah, you will be so I Deb, I was painting myself with nail polish, because as a kid, that's my mom. I just, I tell you what I was something kind of special, and I don't even, I don't even know if I really had cancer. I do know I had fleas. I never saw the cancer. I've seen

this. The fleas might have actually been drawn to you by, you know, some of the drugs and things, but I don't get mosquito bites anymore. I My husband gets, not on, gets these huge welts, all of these various nothing. And I've decided it's because the mosquito goes, Oh, my God, she's toxic.

I think the fleas were in it for the Dilaudid. Yes, yes. That was they were after the

pain meds. You make it happen, please. They were like,

This chick is really fly? Yeah. Yeah. Well, that is, but, yeah. I mean, I think all of this is kind of what I'm managing all at once. And, and you're right though, Brad, there is no good time to go through a bad time right time. It's like the the plumbing exercise. You don't have time to wait for a plumber if you have a slow leak, but if your basement floods all of a sudden, you cancel everything. Yeah, and I've noticed that the more I share about what I'm going through and the hard time, the more comfortable people feel sharing with me about their hard times.

Well, I think a part of what we a lot to we like to talk about here, Deb and I talk about with all of our guests and in our conversations we have, is how humor. It doesn't make things go away, but it helps you to cope with it in a different way, because we do know that there are things in our world right now where loneliness and isolationism and going down, you know, the Doom scroll that people can go through and you know, going to Dr Google to get all your information can actually send you a spiraling to a place that's not good, not healthy. And if we can find some way, both personally, in our own right, in our own psyche, our own mind, in our relationships with those people closest to us, and in how we relate to others, to help ourselves to cope with it in some sort of a way that lightens the load a little bit and is helpful to others. I think, you know, that's kind of the purpose what we have this podcast about. And I think you're you've shared with us here. I mean, I personally, and Deb, I think you'll agree with this. I find it absolutely amazing and impressive that you're talking to anybody three or four weeks out of surgery, and, and, and, you know, and I know what you know, I had my prostate remove, was my surgery and that that put me on the shelf for a long time, both physically and psychologically and all kinds of other ways. And so I know that, so I just tell you how impressed I am with that. But here's why I kind of want to bring us around to this. And Deb, you can jump in here too about this. There's a certain level of absurdity to all this thing that we're going through. And what kind of things are you learning about yourself or about what you're going through that just might be helpful to someone else who's in that tipping point, or a leverage point between going down, you know, going down the Doom scroll area, or finding some way to be able to deal with the kids going to school and Mom with one boob and all that, all the old steel thing going on in your marital situations and medical stuff, it's easy to go down. You haven't gone down. And you may have your we all have our moments. You know, we have a tear or tear moments in our you know, in our laughter moments. But what are some thoughts you might have to someone who's on that edge right now. And Deb, you can jump in here too, but, but I know, I just want to ask you that question, what kind of what kind of things would you share with

that person? Well, I would say it is pretty counter intuitive. You have to do the things you don't want to do to feel better, and the tasting of those disgusting Oreos that I referenced earlier was one way I did that last week. So last week, I was having one of those down days Brad, where I had had an interaction with my partner that had hurt my feelings. I had had an interaction with my child that had hurt my feeling, and I was not ready to have my drains removed, which was upsetting to me and I, and I had a pretty dark thought, and I was thinking back to some therapy stuff that I know as a clinician, but also I know as a client. And then I was talking to a friend, and he said to me, when are you going to have some social interaction? And I said, I don't want any. Thank you. And he said, Well, remember how sometimes we have to choose to do what we don't want to do so that we feel better and that that's a technique called behavior activation. And so I at that point, said, I hate it when you're right. And and I went to my desk where I had been saving this tin of disgusting Oreo flavors that were all the Thanksgiving flavors, and I went on Facebook Live, and my friends commonly come to me for feedback on Oreos, and I had saved those to do it with my kids, but I was feeling like my kids weren't going to share it with me, and I was feeling sorry for myself and lonely and just sad down that tube. And I started saying, Hi friends, I'm doing this because I don't want to do this. And so and so. I just need you to know I'm having a bad day, and I'm going to do this anyway. And it ended up having like, hundreds of people tune in, which I didn't even know, hundreds of what are they doing? They should be working on a random tons of people just saying, oh my gosh, Valerie, that's disgusting. Why did you do that? But thank you for doing it. Thank you for saving me from trying creamed corn Oreos. And then, because I did that, a friend of mine saw that, and she saw I was having a bad day, so she texted me. And then another friend saw it and texted me and said, Hey, would you like to lunch, and another friend texted so because I didn't want any one around me, because I felt so alone, I had to go out and get the energy that I needed, and that's what I learned. I learned, and I'm continuing to learn that I have a really hard time asking for love and even accepting it, I enjoy giving it. Hero, yeah, receiving love is really difficult for me, and yet I feel so deeply hurt when I'm not receiving it. So that hilarious. It is, it is and, and I feel like I'm not enough when I have to ask for it, like they should know I'm having a hard time, right? Yeah, and I think that's something to remember.

And dance bit of a dynamic. You're kind of a dance fan yourself as well, right?

It is. It's a significant thing, and I need to learn and practice receiving it instead of saying, you don't really mean this the Thank you, yeah, oh, I'm fine and fine. No, if someone says, Can I bring you dinner? You say, yes, thank you so much. Yes. Just say, yeah. Well, I think be happy for doing it. They wouldn't have offered it if they didn't want to.

I think it's just helpful, practical advice to sometimes do what you're uncomfortable doing and just do it any I even don't feel like doing it. I think it's part of, you know, part of what we teach here, Deb and I do just suddenly, just got to take action, you know, even if you just got to get off your rear end and do something, you know that, that kind of thing. So, yeah, there you go. Well, some great advice here, some great insights here. And so Deb, I'm let you wrap things up, and then I will close our conversation. But I think you've got, you've got some things you want to add here to our conversation about what we've had here with Mallory.

This has been absolutely delightful, which is just so strange, right? We're having fun talking about cancer, you know, and but the thing that I get from all of this, that you're doing such a great job at, is making it something that everybody can talk about. We're removing the stigma. Sometimes that is with laughing, sometimes that is with tears, right? But we need to remove that stigma so that people know we can talk about this, because if we can't talk about it with our friends, we might not be willing to talk about it with our doctors, you know, and and all of those things. And so I love that you're helping to make it just something that now happens, and we need to talk about it and move on.

Well, I want to say a big, yeah, thank you for sharing that. Deb that that's awesome thereby as well. Say a big thank you to you as well. Mallory, and I think what your message you're sharing here? Yes, coming out of surgery that, yes, not over with yet. You're gonna have bad days. You have good days you're going to have, you know, some paying the rear days and all kinds of stuff. But you got to keep, keep going that that is awesome stuff there. And so people need to learn from you. And I've been on your website, there's lots of cool things there, but somewhere down the road you're going to be, you know, you know, getting back involved and engaged with things after your recovery period. So how can people learn more about you, about what you're going to be up to? And I got a feeling there's gonna be some more stories to tell down the road here, but tell us how people can get in connection with you. Yeah, thanks, Brad.

You can reach me by going to my website. Of course. Mallory desal.com I'm also on LinkedIn. Mallory desal on LinkedIn and on Facebook as well. You can join Deb and I and be friends, and you can connect with me there, or even email me again. It's Mallory desal@gmail.com and it's Mallory with an I know it's an unusual spelling. My parents told me they found it on a mattress truck, which was another TMI from my

mother. Wait, wait, we got another. I think, I think we got another. We got another hour with your mother. We need to get your mother on this podcast. Hey, sounds like there you go. Well, pleasure to have you with this. And I'll just say that it's her website, Mallory desal.com That's M, a L, L O, R, I, D, E, S, a l, l, e.com. Pleasure of having me with us. And so our conversation today is really about how kind of couched in terms that both Deb and I and Mallory all in the Cancer Coping club, in the sense of we now didn't really want to be in this club, but we're here, and we're going to make the best of it, and we're going to do things to be helpful to others who are part of this club. And since the sensibility that we can it's not all bad and doom and gloom, it can. There's some points of joy in this experience, and we're glad that you're a part of our life, Mallory, and we thank you for being our guest here today on cancer and comedy.