How to Rise Above Tragedy with Humor with Jolytologist Allen Klein

Hello, good people. Welcome back to the Cancer and Comedy podcast, where we like to approach things like cancer and other bad things in life with healing, hope and humor. We're really privileged today to have as our guest Allen Klein. And Allen is known for helping people to discover the power and positivity and positivity and resilience in humor is among other things. He's the author of a classic book in the area of therapeutic humor called the healing power of humor, and he's got a film coming up that we're going to talk about a lot, called the “Jollytologist.” So Allen Klein, welcome to our conversation here today.

It's great to be here. And you know, I forgot to ask you, yes sir, video or just audio, because I don't know if my hair is.

Oh well, your hair is looking good, man, your hair, yeah, well, you're looking awesome there. And so, yeah, how So, yeah, we're both video, we're both video and audio. And you're looking good. You're looking handsome as ever. I saw your film where you're just, you're known as being a very handsome man, right?

That's kind of when you have this little hair, everyone counts.

There you go. There you go. Well, that's awesome. Well, you just kind of struck on something that I want to ask you about, what's, what's something in your life, or somebody you've encountered recently that just kind of struck you funny, or something that happened to you, anything recently?

Something funny, nothing happened. Funny, funny. Well, I always create funny when nothing's funny. Like, yeah, okay,

Dr. Brad Miller 01:47

The red rubber nose, yeah. Well, that's kind of, that's kind of what your go to things, isn't it? The red rubber nose, the big red.

I said change, you know, it changes things. It's a stupid little thing, I know, right? Yeah, sponge bread ball, but it changes things. And people, over my course of my career, have told me how this is, like, saved their life in that traffic jam, and watch how people react.

Well, it breaks a pattern. The people aren't expecting that, that type of thing. And one of the things I one of the things I do, I have these little cards. It's sort of like business cards, but they have dad jokes on them. I'm kind of known as a dad joke guy, and sometimes and I just go, you know, whatever, I'm at a at a gas station and paying for my gas or whatever, I'll just give somebody a card with a dad joke on it. What's this? Well, just keep and share with somebody, and you know, they've got some.

News now that you think of it amusing. Yesterday, I was at the library doing research in a very kind of quiet, huge room, a history room, okay, one other person doing research, and I had to take my bag from me because she couldn't have your bears, you know, you had to put white gloves on stuff like that, right? And they handed me a playing card, you know, a regular playing card, okay, yes, I saw chuckling what, you know, ace of clubs, it was. And she said, that's the way we keep track of your bad you have. We have ace of clubs, and that way, when you give it back to us, we know what bag you have. And I thought history department is kind of a playful little way, rather than a name or, yeah, so.

Simple, effective, and it got your attention, didn't it? Get it put a little.

Yeah and it's also like an icebreaker, you know, it was like, What is this? If she just handed me a number, I wouldn't have said anything, but it was a way of us communicating. And, you know, that's Brad, that's what Yuma does. Yeah kind of breaks down barriers between people.

Well, indeed it does, indeed it does, yeah.

But just take that one example. It was like, Yeah, I didn't know this person. She didn't know me, but this little playing card opened up the door to a little conversation, sure.

Well, I think that's one of the misconceptions that humor is just kind of a incidental thing that happens, but it has a power of relationship building, and this type of thing that I think is so important. I know when I give talks and things like this, or even just personal interactions, if you have a little bit of humor, a little joke or a little aside thing, it makes a world of difference, and it does for me. And so what do you do? What do you think Allen does? You know, I don't we take, we live in a world right now. This leads needs a little more humor than nor than because we got so much tough stuff in the world, right?

That’s why Mr. Jolly college is he. Here. Well, that's my job. Somebody. Well, I think up there gave me this job, Brad, I was such a serious child, really. I would never play with anyone else. I would, I would just, I was an artist, and I would draw things. I wouldn't participate in sports. I was so serious and now look, yeah.

Well, give us just a little piece of a story from your childhood might be indicative of that, and then we'll talk a second here about some of the transitions that you may give us. Maybe a story from growing up or something like that was kind of indicative of that.

Yeah, well, I think it was a little later in life. My parents were very my father was very serious, you know, for him, glass was half empty all the time, okay? And his car, he would park it furthest away from where we were going, so nobody would scratch the car, okay, negative attitude. And my mother, on the other hand, was always jovial. Was I mean, she was later in years, was in a nursing home, and she used to dance with her walker when they had live music on Saturday night.

Dance with her walker. How cool is that?

She would call her walker Fred Astaire.

So apparently, she was, again, she wasn't getting the dancing from your dad, I guess, so she had to dance.

No. Oh, he can dance No. So I think I, first of all, I think I learned, I learned about lightening up from my mom, because she would do it all the time. But I also, when my dad was getting older, and as a teenager, I was kind of very negative. Why is he so negative? I was didn't like him very much. You know, is he negative all the time? And I realized I have such gratitude for his being negative, because as a teenager, I did the total opposite of what my parents told me. I always did. The opposite was my teenage rebellion.

Sure, there you go, and you rebelled from being.

I would always, yeah, I would do the opposite. And so looking back, I realized I was so grateful and so positive in my life, in part because of my dad being so negative, and I would do the opposite.

And now that, and that is that's and that has eventually led you to what we now. You call yourself a gelatologist.

So before we get in,is this very important step in there? If I get into it?

Well, no, that's where I want you to go before you get to Jollytologist, what was that turning point for you? Or the story here? And please go there with me, please.

Yeah. So I was happy I was working at CBS. I was working on all the children shows. It's where I kind of get my child, like, right vision. Captain Kangaroo is my major show summer.

But by the way, I just, I gotta tell you, I'm a Captain Kangaroo guy. I'm of the age I'll be 67 next week. So that is my wheelhouse, Captain Kangaroo. And I'm all before you go too far. I I'm sorry to go off on a tangent here, but I just gotta ask. I loved it when the ping pong balls would come down from this would come down from the ceiling, Mr. Moose, or whatever it was.

And I just bunny rabbit, funny rat was there that would trick this to green jeans. That was some kind of machine to turn the knob, and all these ping pong balls would fall.

I just couldn't say, I love that. I love the whole thing. Not many people besides me and others in my age area would, would era, would get that. But I just love that.

That was my favorite. Now you met the man who designed those machines, is that you, oh, my goodness, would fall.

So I always got the biggest kick out of that, because just some phrase or something would happen, then all the big mobiles would fall harmless. But funnier, heck, my goodness. But I'm sorry to interrupt you, my friend, but I know you were going with kind of this turning point thing that was going.

I just had this my mind thinks like a kid. So as you're saying that I just visualize in your office, if suddenly people.

Well, I got, I got lots of toys in here. I got balloons, I got rubber chickens, I got lava lamps, all kinds of stuff in here, toy cars. I got toys and things like that.

But, yeah, yeah, one day ping pong balls may fall anyhow. So I was designing that show. I got married. We had a beautiful daughter, and then my wife got a rare liver disease, very biliary cirrhosis. Tell us your wife's name before we go too far here. Her name was Ellen, yes, which was a little weird, because my name's Allen. Okay. And no cell phones, then big phones, you'd answer it right? Is Ellen there? Yes, hi, I'm speaking. We would always joke we should. My daughter's name is Sarah, okay, we should have named her Helen.

So mass confusion, mass confusion.

So anyhow, my wife died. It was a very difficult time, rare liver disease for three years, yes, but what turned everything around for me, even though lots of tears, but my classic story is and what turned things around, that I found some humor in this difficult time was she had a copy of play girl magazine with the male nude center, right, right? I got you, Allen, I really like this nude man this month,.

And it wasn't a picture of you on the wall, I guess, right.

No, no, it's a picture this huge, naked man, and I did that, and I said, Ellen, you know, it's a little too risqué for the hospital, right, right? Let's get a leaf and cover up that part. And I did that. And fine for the first day, fine.

So this was, like a real leaf off a house plant or something like this.

Yeah, there was a plan someone sent, you know, in the hospital, and they just took one off.

And there you go, a relief, not a piece of paper.

So, really, really, and it starts shriveling up, and you get the picture. And we would just look at and laugh. And we would, you know, mention it when she got home from the hospital, we would laugh. That was your realized after she died, that little bit of laughter was so valuable. Yes, it helped us rise above a situation, gave us that reprieve, gave us that perspective, and that's when I realized the power of humor and how it could help us rise above almost any situation.

I love the way you phrase it, rise above, because it's not only the temporary relief of laughter. It is kind of the ongoing thing that gives us an opportunity, as you said, to rise above or different perspective on things. And I love that it sounds, you know, in her and obviously she's been gone for some time, but her impact continues, doesn't it?

Yeah. I mean, it changed my whole life. Of my book, The Healing Power of humor, you know, came out, and then people asked me to speak, and I had almost failed speech in college. I hate to speak in front of a group right now. I had an important message, and I just, I got to speak all over the world, and in 50 out of the out of 48 out of the 50 states, and it took my whole career took off because I was talking about, I think, something that was valuable. It was Norman Cousins time also talking about humor. So I think I was just at the right place at the right time. Why me? I don't know. I, you know, almost failed speech. Hated getting in front. Yeah, I took it as a sign that this is mine to do this is some higher being put me in this place to do this.

Well, what I like about it, Allen, is you also you, you dove deep into it. It wasn't, you know, I've actually talked and studied, you know, actual comedian, Steve Martin is a fan of his, and he goes deep into humor and comedy writing and so on, but and about the techniques and strategies, but what you've done also has kind of gone into, you're really deep in kind of academic studies and so on. About this that I find really fascinating. I've worked in I'm going to advanced degree and all that kind of jazz. But I find that fascinating and evolved into what your book and cousins are basically foundation what we now know as therapeutic humor. And appreciate that. And what did you kind of learn at some of those initial stages of going deep in this area that may have been a bit surprising to you or misunderstood?

Well and I think a lot of people misunderstood this, and I did, certainly at the beginning, that humor and laughter are really not the same thing. And you can, you can go on forever talking about the differences, I think. But for me, the main difference is humor is kind of an attitude, a way of looking at things and seeing things in the lighter way, and then when we see the humor in something, we start to laugh, which is a physical thing, sure. So for me, the humor is more of a mental because you have to sometimes. You have to put words together. You have to see something funny. Me or amusing, like I saw the greet those playing cards yesterday? Oh, yeah. Way that was kind in a way, using humor to see the world a little differently. Sure, then that was funny. I would have stopped laughing about it, which was the physical manifestations of that humor.

So the laugh for itself is kind of the, in a way, the temporary relief, which is a good thing, but humor is your approach to life, as you said earlier, to rise up and lift and decide you see things. And it sound like Ellen was a big part of that, helping you to see the her attitude, I'm sure was one if she had taken a morose approach to things that might affect you differently. And I think there's kind of a teamwork when people have illness and tragedy in life, how you look at it makes all the all the difference. A lot of people call it a coping mechanism. I think it's one way of looking at it, but I also think of as a coping tool, like it's in your toolbox and kind of thing, I think you feel similarly. What do you think are some of the ways, or maybe the actual tools that people can use, if they are while we're on this?

You know that my second book was the courage to laugh, yes, and there is a chapter in it about Cancer and Comedy, right? And so, you know, I just want to tell you about, you talk about coping, or how people use human and so I was speaking to a group of cancer survivors, and afterwards, and I do a process where people think about negative things in their life, like that cancer, they don't know I'm going to Give them a clown nose, and then they open the packet, and they put this on with eyes closed, and then they open it, we talk about the laughter that happened. So sure. After the program, this woman comes up to me and she says, See my nose. She said, It's prosthetic. It's okay, okay. And right before your session. She said, a friend of mine kept knocking on my door in the hotel and said, come on down the sessions about to start. And she said, You know, I can't come down right now because I can find my prosthetic nose. I put glue on it, and I've looked around the hotel room and I cannot find it. I don't know where it went. And her friends start laughing hysterical. And she said, What is so funny? She said, the nose is on your behind.

She sat on her or something like that.

And she started laughing at what happened hysterically. And it was such a great example of her not taking not having a nose seriously, you know, well, you know, lighten up about that.

You know. Isn't that great that she took an attitude instead of being just devastated and humiliated. And what have you those, those are real feelings, and we need to identify, you know, we need to acknowledge real feelings like devastation, humiliation. And one of the ways I like to put it is that, you know, when I got my cancer diagnosis, I had to laugh to keep from crying, because it was so devastating and so, but that laughter is a release, and sometimes it's a nervous thing and things like that, but how you look at it makes a makes all the difference. And so let's just use that scenario that you have there about the cancer situation. There are people speaking that. So let's just say we've got some cancer-related folks who are listening to our conversation here today, and what would you think maybe a tool or some methodology or strategy they might use to cope with it that involves humor?

Well, my favorite, you know, is this, yes, okay, have a several around the house. And you know, things aren't going well, look in the mirror.

So have a red nose. Have a red nose. Huh?

Any prop I have somewhere I have, I don't see it right now, but a picture of my daughter with her when she was a teenager. She wanted to have a cream pie thrown in her face, and she got off the camp bus, all of 40 friends around, and there was the cream pie. And that picture just lightens me up. No matter what happens in my day. I look at that picture, which I think is over there, and I lighten up. So have something around that helps you to lighten up, because we're visual people too. Yeah, that's right, you know, well, so my fog that helps me lighten up.

So that's around so I have something physical, is what I'm hearing you say, have something physical, yeah, whatever it is, I know, for me as you're able to be able to see this right behind where I sit. I have a rubber chicken and a balloon because my granddaughters gave me. A balloon and rubber chicken. Not to, you know, they're seven and five now, but they were, like, four and two when this all came down. They gave me a balloon and, for some reason, a rubber chicken. Now we're at our house here. We've got about five or six rubber chickens and things like that. So that's kind of our thing from my granddaughters and I.

So it reminds me, you know, just the, you know, as I think you mentioned, the world is kind of serious right now. Andy, serious. We need something to counteract that. And as someone in my book once said, I love this to put cancer in the background for a little while. Yeah, so it's not that you don't have it. It's not that you're not dealing with it. You just put it aside, and you could, you know, find something to lighten up.

And when you put in the back there, I'm sorry, go ahead, finish your thought there. No,

it's just that it's not gone away. It's still there. But it doesn't mean you can find something else.

There's something a little bit Do you agree? There's something a little bit miraculous when that happens, it is magical. It's miraculous. Have you tell me about a time when you maybe you've seen that miracle happen with someone either you've encountered or maybe read your book or something like that, where they've had that.

Yesterday, I had a lunch with a friend. She has cancer. She had her kidney removed two weeks ago, which amazed me through her belly button, wow, hard to find. I mean, medical miracles these days. Sure. There we were two for two weeks from her operation, having breakfast, chatting, laughing together, we used to be she used to be a speaker in the same organization that I was reminiscing about those days. Again, putting her cancer aside, but also just getting out in the world and enjoying her life as long as she has her life. I mean, we all don't know I don't have cancer. I could be gone tomorrow. I don't know that.

Right. Yeah, well, and that she brightened up your life, and that's a good thing, all right. Now, I got to ask Allen what in the world is a jolly ologist, and how House Cup, you're the man, you're the jelly. What is it? What's it all about? Tell us what that's all about. Okay,

well, the bottom line is, I got a master's degree in Gelotology, G, E, L, O, which is a Greek word meaning laughter. Okay, so basically, I'm a Jell-O-tologist. But you know, it sounded like that.

They both sound like. They both sound like something you'd have at a picnic and you keep in the refrigerator to pull it out. They both sound that way, a little bit gelotologist, yeah,

yeah. So I changed it to Jollytologist, which kind of made more sense. Since I have a degree in therapeutic humor, I thought I need some title, um, proctologist, you know? I guess?

So that was already taken, I guess?

Right, it was taken. And so I use Jollytologist. And now it's, you know, I It's on my first book. Yeah, it's on my first book that was 89 so I've been using it a long time.

And now it's led to an actual film about this called.

PBS next year. Yeah, they're coming in two weeks to do another filming. It's called The Jollytologist. It's all about my life at CBS designing Captain Kangaroo and all this other stuff. And people can see a little four minute preview. I'll give you the website. It's www.thejollyfilm. All one word, thejollyfilm.com.

And it's so and we'll put that in our show notes as well, of course. But it's about your life, a little bit of what we spoke about here. But who is this that's about? It's about you. But who is this film for who you look at to talk.

It’s not really, I mean, it's about my life. But the aim of the film is to what I've done for the last 20 years, show people how to lighten up in not so funny times, 25 words or less absolutely what the film's about and how I've gone through. You know, I talked about one tragedy in my life of other major setbacks, and sure, I don't know why me, but some. I managed to get over them. We all have setbacks. Absolutely. We all get over them in various ways. I used a humor a part of it, and I just want to show that to other people when things get serious, to lighten up.

And to get back from their setbacks. People need help to do that. I think they do. They need guidance, at least, or coaching, whatever you want to say, because they kind of the default factor many people have is to kind of go to some depressed state or some state that's kind of a spiral. And in order to break out of that, you got to be very intentional about it. And so tell me what, what 40 people want to learn here this film that may be helpful to them in terms of applying it to being resilient and to overcome those setbacks.

Well, let me just tell you this story when my wife was dying, just as you said, I went to get therapy. And after it was a young therapist. I don't think he had a lot of experience with people dying, and he said to me, after the second session, life is tough. I got up and I walked out the office. I said, my wife is dying. I know life is tough. I don't have to pay you whatever it was X amount of money. Tell me life is tough. And it's when I realized that, you know, it was like, why am I living? And that my answer kept coming up. You have a 10 year old daughter who needs you, wants you. In fact, she used to say, Dad, don't die, which was a very hard thing to answer. But I realized we needed to bond one, one wonderful thing we did after my wife died, is we went on a trip to Alaska, because I said to Sarah, we need an adventure. And it was an adventure, you know, being on the glaciers and whales, and you know, it was sleeping overnight and your waterfalls and going down White Water trips and it's so bonded us together to this day, we laugh a lot.

And she was about how, just give me a context about.

She was 10 years old when my wife.

So, very tender time. And I just think that's so important, you know, something there's that trite saying that people sometimes use, you know, life is hard and then you die, you know. And I just that it's that's such a throwaway thing, because it doesn't take into account everything in between. You know, it's like one of the sometimes when I do, I'm a retired pastor. Sometimes when I would do funeral messages, I would talk about the hyphen, or the space between your birth, date of birth, and your date of death. What's what is entailed in that is a whole world of things, and that's what you're talking about here, living for something greater than yourself. And in my case, it was my two granddaughters. I just they were four and two at the time. I was diagnosed, and I had kind of a serious diagnosis, they said, if two or three years, if you don't do something about it, and I did, but, but I tried to envision them like graduating from high school and getting married, and, you know, dancing at their weddings and things of this nature, and that's what kept me going. And I just think that's what I'm hearing you say. You got to have those joyful moments to hang on to beyond that could help you go beyond your circumstances. And I love I love that. Yeah, exactly. Allen, what do people not understand about you?

Not understand well?

What do people not understand about you?

I'm not sure. Ask them. Okay, well, I mean, I only get my perception of other people towards me. I don't know.

Part of what I'm getting at is sometimes people believe that, for instance, humor is inappropriate when you're dealing with serious matters. And that's part of what I'm getting at here that, you know, they think, Oh, this is not the time to laugh or not the time to tell humor stories, that kind of thing. How do you deal with that type of criticism when it comes or what is an approach that people might take to that?

Well, you know, that could be right, because there is, like, sometimes is the AT and T theory of humor, appropriate, timely and tasteful, yeah. And I remember, when I was first starting this, a friend of mine just broken up in a relationship, and I started to kind of kid around about it, and he got very, very upset with me, yeah. So there is, like a time and place, you know, but if you listen to what's happening. And often patients, you know, I was a hospice volunteer, and often patients would say things and like, the family would be a gas, but it was funny, and you could, like, you could lighten up then, you know. But the other thing I think people around. Particularly around death and dying are people that are seriously ill, people even with cancer, they don't and when my wife died, people did not know what to say to me. Sure, you know, they kind of freeze up and I understand that, but I also understand funny things happen, like at funerals. I know a piece that a young priest and looked in the coffin and was trying to make an allegory or something, and said, Well, this, this is only the shell. The nut is gone, you know.

Okay, I'm with it now. I get it. That is.

Yeah, so funny things happen, and just listen and look for those people. And people also feel guilty in serious situations.

And, well, I think we I think there's, there's, I think you're right. You need to read the room. There's kind of a time and a place. I know, I know you're a student of death and dying. You live with Kuber Ross and that type of thing. And the stages, you know, there's a difference between kind of the denial stage and the acceptance stage. There may be certain things that are appropriate, you know, appropriate, inappropriate during the various stages of the whole process.

And my five stages from, yeah, I know. I thought Elizabeth Kubler Ross has five stages, right? Allen Klein wants five stages of his own.

So I read. I read those. I've read a little bit in some of your stuff, but please go with it. Go there the five stages in life after loss.

After my wife Ellen died, I would read these big, thick books about grief and how I'm going to lose sleep and appetite, I'm not going to feel well. And I thought I already know this. I don't need that. I need some encouraging book where I could just open it and read something simple and help me get through the day. And so I wrote this book, and it does have five stages, and I'll just really quickly, one, losing. You know, we've whether it's cancer, we've lost things we can't do, or right energy, whatever it is, or that woman's nose that stuck her behind. She lost that. And then learning, you know, that loss is part of life that none of us are going to get out of that process and then letting go, that we can't keep carrying a thing. I was working when I was in hospice, a woman lost her mother, and for three years she grieved so hard that she her whole lifestyle, yeah, right. I thought this is a real tragedy, because two lives have been lost. Sure. Yeah. So letting go and then living again, you know, getting out the house, doing things. And then once you start doing that, you'll probably start finding something to laugh about that.

That is awesome. That is awesome. Well, I appreciate that so much. And I love when you give points. I get that people can, you know, hang on to, you know.

All else.

Yeah, I love that. Well, I love what you've shared here today. And let's, I want to bring it around to this tell us about, you know. Let's just say, you know, I deal in a world where, you know, people impacted by cancer and other things that kind of eat them alive. Can't they? Like, you know, cancer cells eat people alive with the disease, but you can have people but depression and divorce and, you know, grief and all those things can eat you alive as well. Well, let's just say that someone you know really needs they're in that depressed state. Is there one of your books you would point to, or something that you would point to that could just say, Okay, go here. This may help you just to travel this road. Is there some resource you have that can help them?

Well, you know, when people are depressed, particularly, they're not into reading a lot of stuff. You know, they're in themselves. So I think, because this does talk about dying, but it's for any kind of depression, is a loss. This is any kind of loss, sure, because, look, I could just open it to any page, right? And so there's a little quote, there's a little paragraph. This is called still here. It's a quote by Ram Dass so say I take this as my words for the day. Yeah, if you're connected to someone in a moment of love, the essence of that person is right there with you, even after death.

Awesome. Well, that's great, and that's great place for us to kind of bring us around here. But let's, let's kind of make sure people know a few details about the jolly film in terms of, when can they expect it to come out? How can they support it? Anything is on that line? So there. Right?

It's aiming for PBS in the fall of 2026 so don't hold your breath. All right. The schedule is we're doing more filming. It should be done by the end of this year, beginning of next year. It goes into film festivals around the country, and then on PBS.

Yeah, and if people want to find out more about you, I assume you, seem to me, you're the type of person who's always working on a book or something that you've got go on, and people want to find out more about you. They can find out more about you. How can they connect up with Allen?

Online at www.allenklein.com, spell that correctly right under there, a, l, l, e, n, k, l, e, i, n.com, or if they want to look at the four minute video for the documentary, that's www.thejollyfilm.com, and you could see four minutes of me and what the film's about.

Awesome. We'll look forward to that. Well, any final words you would want to give to our Cancer and Comedy audience, we like to call them lifter uppers, any final words of encouragement to our folks here,

Oh dear, keep it light. I am the ambassador of light. I show people how to keep it light, and particularly with my Get yourself a red nose and wear it often.

What a great way to leave us well. He is a Jollytologist. His name is Allen Klein. We'll put everything about we'll find you can find everything about him on our show notes at cancerandcomedy.com. Allen Klein, thank you for being our guest today on Cancer and Comedy.